羽生结弦吧 关注:82,024贴子:803,971

回复:【花滑技术科普搬运】当微博与字母站无法满足你时……

只看楼主收藏回复

chibura还有其他花滑科普文章,有兴趣的用同样的方法找吧



118楼2021-05-11 23:53
回复
    https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/
    前面提到的俄国技术大牛就是在这里刊登文章,不过这网站跟Goldenskate一样drama不少,跟Golden skate比较不同的是,大部分都是产俄国自家的新闻,如果只是想吃俄国瓜的,可以进入这网站瞎逛,但不要指望有甚么专业花滑科普知识就是了,绝大部分都是八卦。


    121楼2021-05-15 15:27
    回复
      2025-11-11 22:07:55
      广告
      不感兴趣
      开通SVIP免广告
      讲完俄国瓜又要回去说美国瓜了,这是美国瓜的网站,俄国瓜专注俄国选手,同理美国瓜。
      http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/index.htm

      刚才提的俄国瓜我只会点进去看那位技术大牛的文章,而现在提到的美国瓜ice skating international则有较多可看的东西(这边提醒一下,网站首页挂的人物照片都没有更新),以下开始介绍一些不错看的内容吧。


      122楼2021-05-15 15:29
      回复
        第一个要说的是花滑术语表GLOSSARY OF TERMINOLOGY,条目按字母分类
        http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/resources/glossary/glossary.htm
        我列一些常见、有意思的术语
        Biellmann spin: A spinin which the free leg extends backwards and upwards at, or above, head level,the arms reach back over the shoulders, and the blade of the free foot is heldby one or both hands. Biomechanically, the Biellmann position is a camelposition since the hip joint is rotated 90 degrees and the free leg is heldabove hip level; however, under the International Judging System it is classifiedas an upright position. Named after its inventor, Swiss skater DeniseBiellmann.
        贝尔曼旋转跟其他直立旋转的确长得较不一样,与骆驼旋转有相似的地方
        Signature move: A specific movementviewers associate with a specific skater included as a highlight in nearly alltheir programs. The move is sometimes invented by the skaters or is revivedby the skater after not being used for a long period of time. For theskater, the movement identifies them as much as their signature would.
        我有个疑问,为甚么H条目没有列入Hydroblading


        123楼2021-05-15 15:34
        回复
          Flutz: (informal) A jump with a Lutz entry that takes of on the wrong edge.
          不知甚么时候会增加Backaxel呢~
          Cheated jump:
          (Informal) A jump inwhich the rotations are not completed in the air; i.e., a jump in which some ofthe rotation is completed on the ice during either the takeoff or landing ofthe jump. Rather than cheated, the term used in the rules is"missing rotation." Thus, a cheated jump is a jump that ismissing rotation.
          Whenthe technical panel calls a jump element, they determine whether the jump hasmissing rotations and indicate if that is so by adding a "q", < or<< symbol to the element code. These codes indicate if the jump isshort 1/4 of a rotation, more than 1/4 but less than 1/2 rotation or 1/2 ormore rotation. Jumps missing less than 1/4 rotation are not indicated in theprotocols in any way.
          Under-rotated jump:
          A jump which is missingmore than 1/4 rotation when the free foot contacts the ice, but less than 1/2.
          Jumpsmissing rotation of any amount in the air were once all referred to asunder-rotated jumps, or cheated jumps. With the introduction of IJS,under-rotated was defined to specifically mean a jump missing more than 1/4 rotationbut less than 1/2, and the term missing rotation introduced for when a jumplacks full rotation by any amount.
          不标准技术↑
          ------------分隔線---------------
          优质技术↓ #YUZURU #TEXT BOOK
          Fully rotated a jump: A jumpthat completes all expected rotations in the air, either an integer number oran integer number and one-half. In reality, fully rotated jumps typicallyhave about one-eight less rotation than the nominal value. Missing rotationsare then the number of rotations less than that reduced number.
          Delayed jump: A jumpin which the rotation is delayed by hesitating on the pull in, and whichrotates slowly at the start and quickly at the end. The most common example isthe delayed Axel.


          124楼2021-05-15 15:39
          回复
            接下来要介绍的是George S.Rossano的文章,他的文章都佐以科学数据,不过有几篇观点有些一言难尽,作者本人的立场也很微妙,我先列出几篇没问题的文章
            The Ice is Very Slippery
            http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/slippery_ice.htm
            这篇解释冰面很滑的双关语意即科学原理。
            Dynamical Model of a Quad Axel
            http://iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/QuadAxelModel.htm

            Dynamical Model of a Quad Lutz
            http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/QuadLutzModel.htm

            从两张图可看出4A比4Lutz需要更高的高度及空中停留时间


            125楼2021-05-15 15:49
            回复
              以上这三篇是不仅没有逻辑上问题,也没有立场上问题。


              126楼2021-05-15 15:53
              回复
                以下文章内容都属实,值得一看,只是带有作者微妙立场
                In Search of the Quad Axel
                http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/QuadAxel.htm
                George S. Rossano针对4A、4Lutz建模后,对4A进行深入的数据分析及探讨可行性。
                他认为4A很难跳出,因为他认为现在pre-rotation、under-rotation的问题泛滥,绝大部分选手连idealized jumps 、textbook jumps都跳不出了,更遑论4A
                节录文章片段
                We call them idealized jumps because in the real world most skatersexecute jumps with technique different from the ideal descriptions, and fortriple Axel and above very different.
                Further, certain jumps even when executed in textbook fashion never havehad an integer number of rotations. Loops and Salchow, for example, havealways been executed with about one-quarter rotation short of integer rotation,as the skaters jump not only upwards, but also somewhat to the side for thesejumps.
                大意:
                1.许多3A执行不标准
                2 Loops和Salchow带有些许天然的pre-rotation,即使是textbook jumps都无可避免
                Looking at ISU competition specifically, many skaters have up toone-half rotation missing on the takeoff and up to one quarter rotation on thelanding, and ISU Technical Panels will call those jumps fully rotated, giving fullbase value.
                This means a full value jump can often be missing a total of three-quartersof a rotation for toe loop through Lutz, and one-half for Axels (Axels tend tohave no more than one-quarter missing rotation on the takeoff, one-third at worst).
                This is the method the Russian wunderkind (and others) now use to getcredit for triple Axel and quads. Most Russian girls do it the same way,and as the most successful ones are all taught by the same coach, it appearsthis is the technique they are taught, and not a coincidence, knowing the ISUwill not penalize them.
                大意:
                因为ISU不罚,3A、4Lutz的pre-rotation、under-rotation满天飞,尤其是俄国女单选手
                Given the skill level needed to achieve a fully rotated quad Axel (Table2), it seems unlikely we will ever see one of these. It would probably requirea revolutionary improvement in technique, training and/or equipment for askater to outperform the assumptions built into Table 2, particular the time ittakes to get over the right side and pulled in; i.e., an air rotationefficiency approaching 0.9. A dynamical model of a true quadAxel can be found here. A dynamical model of a true quadLutz can be found here.
                大意:
                考虑到要真正做到没有pre-rotation、under-rotation的4A很难,除非要能突破现阶段的技术、训练方式及装备,不然真正的4A很难实现。
                这篇我还有话要说,只是先不在这里谈


                127楼2021-05-15 17:06
                收起回复
                  2025-11-11 22:01:55
                  广告
                  不感兴趣
                  开通SVIP免广告
                  Current Replay Systems Not Up To Task of InsuringAccurate Calls
                  As Many as Twenty Percent of Technical Panel JumpReviews May Be Wrong
                  http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/commentaries/ReplaySystem.htm
                  这篇指出回放系统及裁判眼睛的不准确性,可配合牛哥论文服用
                  不过GeorgeS. Rossano先生你确定自己国家选手的技术能通过AI的检视吗~~~
                  The Axel is the Only Jump that Takes Off Backwards
                  http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/AxelBackwards.htm
                  这篇提到了3A、4Lutz的pre-rotation、under-rotation
                  很神奇的是,这篇文章提到了日本女单选手及俄国女单选手,就是没提到美国的女单选手,而且也没提到男单选手呢
                  The Next Olympic Ladies Champion Revealed
                  http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/Next%20Olympic%20Champion.htm
                  这篇提到了女单幼龄化的问题,老样子,一直在说日本女单选手及俄国女单选手3A、4S、4Lutz 等pre-rotation、under-rotation的问题,而且这些问题的根源是由于isu不按照规则手册执行规则
                  不过GeorgeS. Rossano先生,你自己国家的男女单选手也有这堆问题,你怎么不说~~
                  总之这位GeorgeS. Rossano是物理专家,对于pre-rotation、under-rotation都分析得非常清楚,但是总是避而不谈自己国家的选手,尤其是某些男单的4F真的该好好拿出来谈谈阿


                  128楼2021-05-15 17:08
                  回复
                    George S. Rossano其实在6.0时代就开始写文章了,不过他最近的文章都在分析Cheated jump(the term used in the rules is"missing rotation")及Under-rotated jump,虽然看得出来研究动机有些微妙,但是研究出来的结果倒是让大家知道若是花滑再不引进AI,弊病只会越来越多。
                    仔细看George S. Rossano从过去到现在的文章,都是针对美国花滑的现况去做研究,就现在而言,美国女单3A及四周跳不普及,俄国及日本女单相较之下对其造成威胁,因此George S. Rossano对俄国及日本女单进行研究,提出了以上的几篇文章。我相信以George S. Rossano的技术分析不会不知道自家的某男单也有Backaxel的问题,但是自家男单现在靠这个他口中的Cheated jump水了不少分数,如果这位专家在文章中直接对这位Backaxel先生公开处刑,那就非常精彩了
                    George S. Rossano的文章大体都没什么问题,唯有两篇文章有问题,在外网论坛也有人对其提出疑问,毕竟George S. Rossano的文章都辅以物理学知识及AI数据,具有较大的可信度,但那两篇文章对air position的解释非常奇怪,充满矛盾之处。


                    129楼2021-05-15 20:39
                    回复
                      先看A Quad Salchow, Nearly as Good as It 这篇Getshttp://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/QuadSalchowHanyu.htm
                      这篇的内容是在说虽然现在的选手偷周、存周的问题很严重,但是几近0 protation的四周并非不存在,这里有请羽生选手2019gpf的4S来示范。
                      文章节录:
                      The ISU is currently willing to give full credit toquad attempts no matter how little rotation they really have, as long as theygive the illusion of a quad and are not under-rotated on the landing. Somuch so, you might come to think fully rotated quads just can't be done.
                      Butthat isn't the case.
                      Wepresent here as an example, a quad Salchow executed by Yuzuru Hanyu in theShort Program of the 2019 Grand Prix Final that illustrates the geometry of afully rotated quad. It doesn't get much better than this when it comes tocomplete rotations. This jump was 0.76 sec in the air, and ever soslightly under 3 3/4 rotations in the air. (1)
                      文章到这里都没问题。


                      130楼2021-05-15 20:41
                      收起回复
                        但是…
                        The air position of the skater departs from idealin several respects: the body of the skater is somewhat bent along thelong axis at the waist and knees; the legs are not straight and in contact witheach other; the arms are not tight at the side, the hands are not flat againstthe torso. And yet the skater had no problem fully rotating the jump.
                        Comparethe bent rotation axis of this position to the straight rotation axis for NathanChen at top left.

                        啥米???你告诉我上图可以跳出几近0protation的大佬,你口中的best jumper偏离了perfect air position,而下图是所谓的perfect airposition???


                        131楼2021-05-15 20:43
                        收起回复
                          George S.Rossano还对所谓的perfect air position写了另一篇文章:
                          http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/PerfectAirPosition.htm
                          外网论坛看了提出灵魂发问:
                          那么纠结不放松的姿势叫做perfectair position?? 如果这是所谓的完美姿势,那大家为何不做??


                          132楼2021-05-15 20:46
                          回复
                            然后我看到最后…
                            If the skaterwere to refine the air position, a peak rotation rate of 6.5 rotations persecond is within grasp. Food for thought: 6.5 rotations per second + 85%air rotation efficiency + 0.78 seconds air time + an acceptable one-quarterpre-rotation = quad Axel.
                            George S.Rossano你难道是要说羽生大佬只要把手臂抱紧、膝盖打直,如同那张图中的黄衣男,4A就有可能跳出来了???
                            所以George S. Rossano你到底要表达甚么???
                            我看完这两篇文章后很纠结,想了一下又觉得George S. Rossano列出的数据没错,但是结论超怪,因此决定去翻其他数据去左证自己的想法。


                            133楼2021-05-15 20:47
                            回复
                              2025-11-11 21:55:55
                              广告
                              不感兴趣
                              开通SVIP免广告
                              先说一下,文章中说轴要直才是perfectair position,那个直并非指垂直,去看2019gpf,不管是牛哥的4S,还是Nc的4S,都非垂直,而是带有角度,因为跳跃带有水平及垂直加速度,所以跳跃轴不见得会是垂直的,但好的跳跃轴要直,指路科普:
                              【关于轴的科普】
                              https://m.weibo.cn/status/4504429850093312?


                              134楼2021-05-15 20:56
                              回复