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【转】一位美国律师对中国禁吃狗肉计划的看法

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一楼防偷窥,这是一个2010年的帖子,附带老外评论。


1楼2013-01-04 11:41回复
        很多年以前,我在一所学校演讲完以后,和一群法学院的学生一起共进午餐。当我点的素菜上来后,其中一个学生立马讨论“我是地球的绿色管家”这一件事有多棒。当她说完了后,我开玩笑似的告诉她,我吃素是为了弥补开两辆悍马和从不回收任何东西(不是真的,但为了开玩笑)。这个可怜的学生看起来很惊讶,但是其他学生都大笑。我只感到有一丁点的内疚。
        
        所以我认为完全不能将道德问题归咎于一个国家是否吃狗肉。而且我也不认为吃狗肉和吃其它动物肉有什么不同。吃马肉道德吗?吃马肉的国家(例如法国)比不吃的国家在文化上落后些吗?任何人在这一点上有异议吗?又或者是被吃动物的可爱友好应该跟吃这种肉的道德与否有关系?美国并不会比吃狗肉(马肉,或者其它的肉)的国家因此更有教养,更有道德,更先进。法国人喜欢吃壳类食物,但是蛤通常被认为是很脏的。这完全是一个文化上的事情。
        
        我曾经和一些韩国人讨论过吃狗肉的问题。他们抱怨美国人因为一部分韩国人吃狗肉而认为所有的韩国人很可怕。他们告诉我,他们的反驳就是指出美国对待无家可归的“人类”时是多么地糟糕。这是一个很有力的反驳。
        
        我去过韩国很多次。五年前,首尔的威斯丁俱乐部为我第一百次到访韩国举行了一个小型的庆祝会。我会时不时地遇到一些因为韩国人吃狗肉而坚持不去韩国的人,尽管现在碰到的次数少了一些。我觉得最搞的一次是一个“屠夫”告诉我这个。真的没有骗你!
        
        好了,谈谈我怎么看待中国禁吃狗肉的计划。
        
        我不认为中国这么做是为了讨好西方。我认为中国这么做是因为养狗作为宠物在较富裕的国民中慢慢流行开来,这个计划中的禁令是为了讨好这些人。我不认为除此之外有其它目的。
        
        有一个流行的说法,就是中国人会吃任何除了桌子以外的四条腿的,除了飞机以外的会飞的,和除了自行车以外的会动的东西。很显然狗是一个例外。
        
        你怎么看呢?
        
        更新:有人指出,我没有区分吃濒危动物和吃非濒危动物的。如果没有区分的话,那么我说吃什么动物的肉和道德水准无关的论点就不成立。我承认,讲到吃什么动物的肉无关紧要的时候,应该将濒危动物划出讨论范围。


    3楼2013-01-04 11:42
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      Posted by: uk visa | January 27, 2010 7:25 AM
          
          Well, I love the cartoon with the cat! http://digg.com/d31GmTs
          我喜欢看猫咪的卡通画
          Besides that I have the same thoughts as you. I wouldn’t eat dog myself but logically cannot see a reason for prohibiting it while allowing other animals to be eaten.
          另外我和你想法相同。我不会吃狗肉,但是从逻辑上来说没有理由禁止吃狗肉却同时允许吃其它动物的肉。


      5楼2013-01-04 11:43
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        Posted by: Tait | January 27, 2010 8:02 AM
              
              Check the draft of the proposed law, it includes
              cat also.
              看一下这个草案,它也禁止吃猫。
              Dog meat sales were banned in Beijing during the Olympics. The proposed ban is a manifestation of the previous ban for the purpose of China saving face with foreign governments/visitors.
              在奥运期间,北京禁止卖狗肉。这次的提案禁令就是之前那个的表现,为的是中国在外国政府/游客面前挽回面子。
              What percentage of Chinese population want this ban, probably less than 1/10 of 1%.
              有多少比例中国人赞成这个禁令呢?可能少于1%的1/10(也就是0.1%了,真罗嗦)
              Its a Chinese tradition to eat dog mainly because of its medicinal properties. Cat, I haven’t heard about any qualities of that dish and it tastes terrible.
              吃狗肉是中国的传统因为它的药疗效果。猫,我没听说过好吃的猫肉菜,口感糟透了。
              As a foreigner who has eaten dog a few times in China what’s the big deal. The Chinese eat human placenta..so what.
             作为一个外国人,我在中国吃过几次狗肉,没什么大不了的。中国人还吃胎盘呢,那又怎么样?


        6楼2013-01-04 11:43
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          Posted by: Levi | January 27, 2010 10:02 AM
              
              Cruelty toward animals is wrong whether it’s a dog in China or a horse in France. It’s also unnecessary to harm these animals for their meat. Going vegan is easy, healthier, better for the environment and satisfying.
              对动物的残暴是错误的,不管是中国的狗肉还是法国的马肉。伤害这些动物是不必要的。素食是很容易的,很健康,对环境好,很愉快。


          7楼2013-01-04 11:43
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            Posted by: larry | January 27, 2010 7:15 PM
                
                What a great rant... just out of interest what do people think of cannibalism (assuming there is no murder involved)?
                真是夸夸其谈。。。出于好奇问一下,人们对于吃人肉有什么看法(假设没有谋杀发生)
                Couldn’t one also make an argument that zoos’ codes for how to treat animals humanely varies from species to species (e.g. elephants are deemed to need company in order to be treated humanely). Which seems fairly rational to me. So couldn’t a society rationally develop a code for animal welfare in which the laws governing killing differ from species to species?
                难道一个人不可以提这样的一个论点吗,就是动物园人道对待动物的守则根据物种不同而不同(例如,大象被认为是需要伴侣的,以便人道对待)我认为这样做就相当合理。因此,难道一个社会不能理性地设计这么一套动物福利的守则,就是法律对于动物宰杀的规定因物种不同而不同。
                I agree with the interpretation of the motivation for this new law. Pet dogs are way more popular in China than they were even 6 years ago when I first went to China.
                我同意你对于这个新法动机的诠释。宠物**我六年前第一次到中国时流行很多。


            8楼2013-01-04 11:44
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              Posted by: JL | January 27, 2010 8:23 PM
                  
                  I’m against eating endangered species, but have no problem eating dogs and cats or other animals that were specifically raised for consumption. Banning eating dogs is nonsense. Why dogs and not cows?
                  我反对吃濒危动物,但不反对吃猫狗以及那些专门饲养来吃的动物。禁止吃狗肉是无稽之谈。为什么禁吃狗肉而不禁吃牛肉?


              9楼2013-01-04 11:44
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                Posted by: Thijs (Shenzhen) | January 27, 2010 9:26 PM
                    (这一位来自深圳,从写的英语来看是中式英语,哈哈哈)
                    I do not know eating dog meat or rabbit meat,
                    which one will be evil! To me, all of them are
                    good pet!!!
                    我不知道吃狗肉和吃兔子肉哪一个更罪恶。对于我来说,它们都是很棒的宠物!!!
                    But most of dog meat come from homeless dog in black market, those caught dogs are already with disease. Banning dog meat in China should be good!
                    但是大多数狗肉来自黑市的流浪狗,这些被抓的狗有染病。在中国禁吃狗肉应该是好事!


                10楼2013-01-04 11:45
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                  Posted by: Don Vong | January 27, 2010 9:38 PM
                      
                      It is a real situation! Some people in China still have blind faith in eating dog meat, it will be good for Male’s health & energy?!
                      这是真的!中国有些人还相信吃狗肉有利于男性的健康和精力?!
                      This habit will not easily be changed, even banning dog will be strictly enforced in
                      China, unless those stupid guys can be educated.
                      这个习惯不容易改,即使执法严也是如此,除非这些笨蛋能被教育好。


                  11楼2013-01-04 11:45
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                    Posted by: Kai | January 27, 2010 11:38 PM
                        
                        to all animal rights people, especially the western ones, stop shoving your ideals down people’s throat. no one ideal or culture is superior over another. there is nothing wrong with eating dog, horse, or whale meat. sure the balancing between tradition and protection of animals, especially the endangered ones, should be considered. but westerners can’t tout humanity when their track records show a long history of inhumanity.
                        对于那些宣传动物权利的人,尤其是那些西方人,请不要将你们的意见强加到别人头上。没有一种文化是优越于另一种的。吃狗肉,马肉还是鲸鱼肉都没有错。平衡传统和保护动物尤其是濒危动物之间,是需要进一步考虑的。但是西方人不能一方面兜售人道主义,自己却又有很长一段不人道的历史。


                    12楼2013-01-04 11:45
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                      Posted by: chriswaugh_bj | January 28, 2010 1:46 AM
                          
                          Hi Dan,
                          
                          Long time!
                          
                          Well this whole issue about the dog meat really disgusts the western world!
                          这个吃狗肉的议题恶心了西方世界。
                          Here in Brazil it is not different, and people oftentimes ask me if I had dog meat in China, with that disgusted ethnocentric tone of voice.
                          在巴西这里也是如此。人们经常用一种种族优越的腔调问我有没有在中国吃过狗肉。
                          Funny it is that it is unacceptable to Brazilians to eat dog meat, but they don´t find it so disgusting when I tell them that I ate frog meat.
                          好笑的是,对于巴西人来说吃狗肉不可接受,当我告诉他们我吃青蛙肉时,他们却不觉得恶心。
                          So, this whole issue is very cultural and I don´t think China should ban such a habit with laws and legal instruments, for this is their culture and this is their history!
                          所以,我认为这完全是文化造成的。我不赞成中国应该立法禁止吃狗肉,因为这是他们的文化,这是他们的历史传统!
                          In Brazil, in some areas it is very common to eat lizards, and no one makes any noise about it. It is also common to eat rabbits and sometimes even cats!
                          在巴西,有些地方吃蜥蜴是很平常的是,没有人对此嗤之以鼻。同时吃兔子肉甚至有时吃猫肉在这里也是很平常的事。
                          So, why are dogs unacceptable, especially when talking about people who starved, or are starving?
                          因此,为什么吃狗肉不可接受呢?尤其我们谈论的是曾经挨过饿或者现在还挨饿的人们,
                          Warm regards from Brazil,
                          来自巴西的祝福
                          Henry Anders


                      13楼2013-01-04 11:46
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                        理性很好。从根本上看问题。顶!


                        IP属地:重庆15楼2013-01-04 11:46
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                          Posted by: Twofish | January 28, 2010 7:38 AM
                              
                              Hello Dan,
                              Let me make a connection here, Taiwan has the lowest birth rate in the World today (yes, hard to believe, I know) and it seems woman aren’t interested in having many kids. When traveling to Taipei, what I do see is shop after shop selling dogs and cats as pets, which is very interesting. I am starting to see the same thing in China among young couples. Having children is expensive for couples living in Beijing and pets have become Man’s (and Woman’s) best friend. I think what you can see is as Chinese society advances and taking care of children gets in the way with their careers, many will consider a pet over having children, especially when they are younger. These people would never dream of eating their pets, and so the whole issue of starving people is a valid point. We are witnessing Chinese customs changing before our eyes.
                              Regards,
                              小丹你好,
                              我谈一下我所了解的情况,台湾的生育率全世界最低(我知道这令人难以置信),看起来女性并不喜欢生育多个孩子。在台北旅行时,我所看见的是一间间出售猫狗作为宠物的商店,这很有意思。我在中国大陆也看到同样的现象发生在年轻人身上。养孩子对于生活在北京的夫妻来说代价高昂,宠物成为了男性(和女性)最好的朋友。我认为,随着中国社会的发展,照顾小孩会妨碍事业发展,很多人会考虑养宠物而不是养小孩,对于年轻人更是如此。这些人根本就不会想到吃他们的宠物,所以扯到人们挨饿(所以吃猫狗)不成立。我们正目睹中国传统的改变


                          16楼2013-01-04 11:46
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                            Posted by: Karl J. Weaver | January 28, 2010 8:30 AM
                                
                                Dog lover here (the non-eating kind). The eating of dogs never filled me with righteous indignation since it’s so obviously a cultural difference.
                                狗粉注意一下(不吃狗肉的那种)。有人吃狗肉从来没有让我想到道德谴责,因为这很明显是文化差异引起的。
                                However, if China really wanted to burnish its image abroad they could stop executing mentally ill British citizens in an orgy of nationalistic revenge for the Opium Wars.
                                尽管如此,如果中国真的是想改变国际形象,他们不应该处决那个患有精神病的英国公民,他们以为这样一种民族主义狂热就可以为鸦片战争报仇了。
                                Just saying.


                            17楼2013-01-04 11:47
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                              Posted by: Glen | January 28, 2010 9:35 AM
                                  
                                  Um, dogs as pets ain’t a new thing in China. The Chinese have kept dogs as pets for centuries. Lion dogs (Shih Tzu, Pekingese) are among the most ancient breeds in the world. I’m sure we’ve all seen Fu Dog in classical Chinese paintings, akin to Fido in Renaissance art.
                                  将狗作为宠物在中国并不是新闻。中国人将狗作为宠物已经有N个世纪那个久了。狮子狗/京叭是世界上最古老的狗种之一。我相信我们都看过中国经典绘画中的福狗,就像文艺复兴作品中的Fido一样。
                                  As to eating dog, I must refer back to the 1st comment on necessity - during WWII dogs and cats practically disappeared in Europe. Similarly in China dog eating is associated with necessity of lower rungs in society, like possum or entrail in Southern cuisine, or getemono kui in Japan.)
                                  至于吃狗肉,我必须提到第一个关于生化必需品的评论(Posted by: jamie 说饥荒的这一位)。在二战中,欧洲所有的猫狗都消失了。类似的在中国狗肉也是较为贫困阶层的肉食来源之一,就如老鼠肉在中国南方的菜谱中,又像getemono kui(估计是日本人贫穷时吃的某样食品)在日本一样。


                              18楼2013-01-04 11:47
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