我一直觉得P社游戏整体是以欧洲的社会结构和认知为框架建立的，然而该机制并不一定完全适合中国。比如欧陆中的AI罕有出现清推翻明统治的情况，倒是隔壁的孟加拉、朝鲜、阿瑜陀耶常常趁乱得地，而且中国的一块地的面积能顶意大利的十块地；在钢丝中，也没有妥善地模拟根据地和游记战。P社的新游戏，代号Project Ceasar，出现了相似的对于中国区域的忽视，故在P社论坛发表了一篇文章介绍中国，并且提出了一些自己的建议，请诸位指教。另，若方便的话，还请诸位去捧个场，也能让新游戏的中国更符合历史实际，十分感谢！
附链接：
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/a-comprehensive-solution-of-the-china-region-on-game-balance-and-historical-representation.1707741/
附全文：
A comprehensive solution of the Chinaregion on game balance and historical representation
This is a very long post, in which I will compare differences between China and Europe and try to present a comprehensivesolution on china so as to both keep the game balance between different regions and keep a historical representation of China. Chinese culture and history vary greatly from Europe, and it would fail to create a “believable world” bypresenting China the way Europe is presented.
1. On Administration and Control
Unlike the Medieval Ages in Europe wherethe feudal system was still widely used, China abandoned it during Han dynasty.Qin first abolished the feudal system and established a vast network of civil servants to administer the empire, which I will call the imperial system. WithQin falling some twenty years into its reign, the succeeding Han dynasty,unable to decide which system is better, made part of China feudal and part of China imperial. Several decades into Han’s reign saw the feudal vassals grown rebellious, and a devastating war ensued. After narrowly restoring peace, Han rulers found that only the feudal vassals rebelled and none of the imperial administrative divisions rebelled, thus ending the debate. China has been quite centralized ever since.
The logic behind China’s centralizing political system is mainly that China is too large. China is almost the size ofthe entire European continent. With such a size, it would be impossible to ensure a stable society if too much power is allocated to the local level.Historically, wars in which different warlords vie for unification had alwaysbrought death in the millions, a terrifying toll in ancient era and something most Chinese are willing to avoid at all costs.
In Europe, where land is comparatively scarce and water abundant, especially with the Mediterranean, lots ofsettlements were along the sea and the sea was often considered an important meansof travel. However, in ancient China, people did not really utilize sea transport except for bulk transfer of goods, for a lot of cites and towns werefar inland. Orders from the central government and reports by local officials were instead usually transported by horse. Stations were built along main roads designated by the government, and envoys would use horses from the stations,changing horse on reaching the next station. It was the vast network of roads that connected different parts of China.
So in the game, it should present China with rather high base control, although wrong cultures during Yuan dynasty should lower it significantly. Also, control in China should propagate mainlythrough the network of main roads instead of along the coast. Also, thereshould be a national spirit, making Chinese tags uninterested in non-Chinese territory, and greatly interested in unifying China if fractured. Unifying wars should always be total wars, leaving China in a constant state of warfare during fractured times.
P.S. I’m rather uncomfortable with the location density in China. Take the Area level division as an example. The present-day province of Gansu is larger than Germany in size, yet Gansu is only allocatedone Area in last DD, while Germany is given a dozen Areas. The Gansu corridor,as an important part of the silk road, hosted important cities, and should be properly depicted, as with other parts of China. The current maps are somewhat biased and unfairly favoring White people.
2. On Culture and Religion
Confucianism looks more like a culture rather than a religion. It is a part of the common part of different cultures around china and acts as a gluing force keeping china as a whole. When oneidentifies oneself as a Chinese, one probably means that one accepts the common part of Chinese culture, and that one considers Chinese history as one’s ownhistory, taking both the glories and the mistakes on one’s own shoulder. Confucianism is a part of that common denominator. Unlike religions, which tell you, “dothis and you’ll go to heaven, do that and you’ll go to hell”, Confucianismtells you, “do this and people will like you, do that and people will not likeyou”, and “everyone do this and the society will prosper, everyone do that and turmoilwill ensue”. There is nothing mysterious in Confucianism, nothing that is not apart of our world. In fact, Confucius himself said that he respected talks onghosts and spirits, but he would keep his distance from these talks. (敬鬼神而远之)
In fact, traditionally, most Chinese do notreally believe in any religion. Buddhism and Taoism were the two majorreligions, but still very much in the minority. A lot of people would paytribute to figures in popular mystical stories, and Taoism itself originated insuch a way. But although there are a lot of proto-religious figures, nosystematic religion except Taoism has ever survived long. Also, Chinese people generally think that tributes have to yield results, or in other words, arepragmatic. It is not uncommon for people to suddenly seem pious when they desperately need something, then completely ignoring these proto-religious figures, or deities if you like, after imminent need has passed away. It is also not uncommon for people to change worshipping targets if they find theworships don’t work. To conclude, although there were lots of cases of worshipping, real believers were scarce. The trend has actually continued today, as today’s China is still among some of the least religious countries inthe world.
So in the game, different part of Chinashould have different local cultures, all of which belonging to one culturegroup as usual, but religion in China should factor in the huge number of pseudo-believersand not really categorizing them as belonging to any religion.
3. On Education and Research
Education in Europe was traditionallyprovided by the church, which helped to keep religion an important aspect ofsociety. In China, education was originally exclusive to nobles. During thechaos of the Warring State period, education started to be available tocommoners as well. During Sui dynasty and Tang dynasty, the meritocratic way ofchoosing civil servants became well established, and since Song dynasty, takingtests became the only channel of mass selection of civil servants. In ancient China,making sure the people had enough food was always the top priority for the ruling class, as most dynasties fell either through the loss of centralizedpower or through peasant revolting for not having enough food. In order to have enough food, most of the workforce had to bepeasants due to low productivity. Therefore, all professions other than civilservants and peasants were suppressed and discouraged, so becoming a civil servant became the most likely channel for ordinary people to climb the socialladder. By linking civil servant selection with a written test, it actuallyencouraged education, and made most Chinese knew that education is important,although most were also too poor to acquire any. There were private schools aswell as government ones, and unlike Europe, neither were religious.
There are several reasons why when Europe industrialized, China was stillstagnating as an agricultural society. On Europe, nobles patronized privateresearch. However, since China did not really have independent nobles, so there were none to patronize those doing scientific research. Also, as I said, inorder to feed the entire country, non-farm occupations were greatly suppressed,again resulting in a static society. However, China did benefit from its longhistory, as a lot of new inventions in Europe were already there in China.China could mass produce paper and mass print large volumes at least by Song dynasty with the clever invention of Movable Type (活字印刷术). A lot of political centralizing and military advances were alsoalready present in China during Yuan dynasty.
So in the game, instead of religious buildingsproviding literacy, in China, as well as some other parts of the world, thereshould be a kind of building devoted wholly to education, and religious buildings should not provide any literacy. There should be some national ideafor China to boost food production but massively reduce research. China shouldstart out with much more researched advances and technologies and gradually lagbehind in late game, as happened historically.
4. On Military and Supply
It would be quite absurd to use levies aslate as Yuan dynasty. Levies as late as Yuan dynasty were only seen when the regime was at the brink of collapse, as levies made farmlands abandoned,leaving inadequate amount of food produced, and was considered a last and desperate measure. Since at least Qin dynasty, there has been standing armies both in the capital and on important borders. That is to say, there has beenpeople specifically considered to be military personnel since at least Qindynasty. However, in order to guard the entire country, a lot of people were needed, and it would be a huge burden financially. Therefore usually only elite armies, including those stationed around capital (directly controlled by the Emperor) and border strongholds, devoted their entire time training and fighting. Other armies only trained part time and doubled as peasants when they were not training, making them partially self-sustainable and relieving the government of a huge paycheck. During times when the control of the central government waned, these ordinary armies would reduce to normal peasants, making them no different than levies.
During Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasty, typicalnumbers for stationed armies would be around a hundred thousand in the capital,several thousand to some thirty to fifty thousand in each stronghold, as well as a similar number of ordinary armies garrisoned in each provincial level division. See relevant historical records for detailed composition. (The “志”sections of《新元史》《明史》and《清史稿》)
There is the vexed problem of balancing thesize of the military in and out of China. It can be done by applying ahistorical restraint, supply and attrition. China is pretty isolatedgeographically, with the Siberian tundra in the north, sea to the east and south, tropical jungles and mountain ranges in Yunnan, Tibetan plateau in the southwest with a base altitude of more than ten thousand feet, and more mountain ranges and deserts in the northwest Xinjiang region. The fact that the silkroad is so famed actually tells the same story. If there were lots of roads connecting China and Europe/India/Arabia, then none would become famous. It isexactly because that the silk road was the only possible route that it becameso famous. By simulating surrounding terrain and supply status, the game caneasily make it unlikely for Chinese forces to conquer land outside China, as well as making outside forces difficult to get in. The only two exceptions should be Siberia and the seas. The former was the route taken by the Mongol Empire going outward, as they used cavalry, reducing supply time and attrition, and by the Tsarist Russia going in, as they were used to Siberian climate. The latter was the route taken by various colonial powers in the modern era.
5. On Game Balance and Conclusion
By adopting aforementioned suggestions, onecan create a historical China as well as bring in a different kind of gameplay experience. To balance out control, China should have high base control, while keeping a fast growing population and having an intricate and barely sustainable balance of food, resulting in a lot of resources spent on food production. Food status should have deciding impact on stability, with inadequate food leading to lower stability and lower control, resulting in evenless food, and ultimately turmoil. To balance out technology, China should havethe historical institutions and advances as they were, but having a pettyliteracy to research exchange ratio. To balance out military, China should havea standing army but unable to move far away due to constraints in supply.
One would argue that these changes wouldmake China very isolated from the rest of the world. But that is exactly whathappened historically. China was left without much foreign interference untilvery lately, namely since the opium war of 1840. British colonialists came viasea to the mystic oriental country, only to find it not as prosperous as the talestold and without the means to protect itself. I think the rather stagnating situation in those 500 years should be depicted in the game.
In the end, I would like to say that withChina having some of the most well-recorded history in the world, it would onlybe fair to present it a it was. It is also commercially beneficial as a lot of players are from China, although maybe with different IPs. These players might find it uncomfortable as well with an under-represented and ahistorical China.
附链接：
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/a-comprehensive-solution-of-the-china-region-on-game-balance-and-historical-representation.1707741/
附全文：
A comprehensive solution of the Chinaregion on game balance and historical representation
This is a very long post, in which I will compare differences between China and Europe and try to present a comprehensivesolution on china so as to both keep the game balance between different regions and keep a historical representation of China. Chinese culture and history vary greatly from Europe, and it would fail to create a “believable world” bypresenting China the way Europe is presented.
1. On Administration and Control
Unlike the Medieval Ages in Europe wherethe feudal system was still widely used, China abandoned it during Han dynasty.Qin first abolished the feudal system and established a vast network of civil servants to administer the empire, which I will call the imperial system. WithQin falling some twenty years into its reign, the succeeding Han dynasty,unable to decide which system is better, made part of China feudal and part of China imperial. Several decades into Han’s reign saw the feudal vassals grown rebellious, and a devastating war ensued. After narrowly restoring peace, Han rulers found that only the feudal vassals rebelled and none of the imperial administrative divisions rebelled, thus ending the debate. China has been quite centralized ever since.
The logic behind China’s centralizing political system is mainly that China is too large. China is almost the size ofthe entire European continent. With such a size, it would be impossible to ensure a stable society if too much power is allocated to the local level.Historically, wars in which different warlords vie for unification had alwaysbrought death in the millions, a terrifying toll in ancient era and something most Chinese are willing to avoid at all costs.
In Europe, where land is comparatively scarce and water abundant, especially with the Mediterranean, lots ofsettlements were along the sea and the sea was often considered an important meansof travel. However, in ancient China, people did not really utilize sea transport except for bulk transfer of goods, for a lot of cites and towns werefar inland. Orders from the central government and reports by local officials were instead usually transported by horse. Stations were built along main roads designated by the government, and envoys would use horses from the stations,changing horse on reaching the next station. It was the vast network of roads that connected different parts of China.
So in the game, it should present China with rather high base control, although wrong cultures during Yuan dynasty should lower it significantly. Also, control in China should propagate mainlythrough the network of main roads instead of along the coast. Also, thereshould be a national spirit, making Chinese tags uninterested in non-Chinese territory, and greatly interested in unifying China if fractured. Unifying wars should always be total wars, leaving China in a constant state of warfare during fractured times.
P.S. I’m rather uncomfortable with the location density in China. Take the Area level division as an example. The present-day province of Gansu is larger than Germany in size, yet Gansu is only allocatedone Area in last DD, while Germany is given a dozen Areas. The Gansu corridor,as an important part of the silk road, hosted important cities, and should be properly depicted, as with other parts of China. The current maps are somewhat biased and unfairly favoring White people.
2. On Culture and Religion
Confucianism looks more like a culture rather than a religion. It is a part of the common part of different cultures around china and acts as a gluing force keeping china as a whole. When oneidentifies oneself as a Chinese, one probably means that one accepts the common part of Chinese culture, and that one considers Chinese history as one’s ownhistory, taking both the glories and the mistakes on one’s own shoulder. Confucianism is a part of that common denominator. Unlike religions, which tell you, “dothis and you’ll go to heaven, do that and you’ll go to hell”, Confucianismtells you, “do this and people will like you, do that and people will not likeyou”, and “everyone do this and the society will prosper, everyone do that and turmoilwill ensue”. There is nothing mysterious in Confucianism, nothing that is not apart of our world. In fact, Confucius himself said that he respected talks onghosts and spirits, but he would keep his distance from these talks. (敬鬼神而远之)
In fact, traditionally, most Chinese do notreally believe in any religion. Buddhism and Taoism were the two majorreligions, but still very much in the minority. A lot of people would paytribute to figures in popular mystical stories, and Taoism itself originated insuch a way. But although there are a lot of proto-religious figures, nosystematic religion except Taoism has ever survived long. Also, Chinese people generally think that tributes have to yield results, or in other words, arepragmatic. It is not uncommon for people to suddenly seem pious when they desperately need something, then completely ignoring these proto-religious figures, or deities if you like, after imminent need has passed away. It is also not uncommon for people to change worshipping targets if they find theworships don’t work. To conclude, although there were lots of cases of worshipping, real believers were scarce. The trend has actually continued today, as today’s China is still among some of the least religious countries inthe world.
So in the game, different part of Chinashould have different local cultures, all of which belonging to one culturegroup as usual, but religion in China should factor in the huge number of pseudo-believersand not really categorizing them as belonging to any religion.
3. On Education and Research
Education in Europe was traditionallyprovided by the church, which helped to keep religion an important aspect ofsociety. In China, education was originally exclusive to nobles. During thechaos of the Warring State period, education started to be available tocommoners as well. During Sui dynasty and Tang dynasty, the meritocratic way ofchoosing civil servants became well established, and since Song dynasty, takingtests became the only channel of mass selection of civil servants. In ancient China,making sure the people had enough food was always the top priority for the ruling class, as most dynasties fell either through the loss of centralizedpower or through peasant revolting for not having enough food. In order to have enough food, most of the workforce had to bepeasants due to low productivity. Therefore, all professions other than civilservants and peasants were suppressed and discouraged, so becoming a civil servant became the most likely channel for ordinary people to climb the socialladder. By linking civil servant selection with a written test, it actuallyencouraged education, and made most Chinese knew that education is important,although most were also too poor to acquire any. There were private schools aswell as government ones, and unlike Europe, neither were religious.
There are several reasons why when Europe industrialized, China was stillstagnating as an agricultural society. On Europe, nobles patronized privateresearch. However, since China did not really have independent nobles, so there were none to patronize those doing scientific research. Also, as I said, inorder to feed the entire country, non-farm occupations were greatly suppressed,again resulting in a static society. However, China did benefit from its longhistory, as a lot of new inventions in Europe were already there in China.China could mass produce paper and mass print large volumes at least by Song dynasty with the clever invention of Movable Type (活字印刷术). A lot of political centralizing and military advances were alsoalready present in China during Yuan dynasty.
So in the game, instead of religious buildingsproviding literacy, in China, as well as some other parts of the world, thereshould be a kind of building devoted wholly to education, and religious buildings should not provide any literacy. There should be some national ideafor China to boost food production but massively reduce research. China shouldstart out with much more researched advances and technologies and gradually lagbehind in late game, as happened historically.
4. On Military and Supply
It would be quite absurd to use levies aslate as Yuan dynasty. Levies as late as Yuan dynasty were only seen when the regime was at the brink of collapse, as levies made farmlands abandoned,leaving inadequate amount of food produced, and was considered a last and desperate measure. Since at least Qin dynasty, there has been standing armies both in the capital and on important borders. That is to say, there has beenpeople specifically considered to be military personnel since at least Qindynasty. However, in order to guard the entire country, a lot of people were needed, and it would be a huge burden financially. Therefore usually only elite armies, including those stationed around capital (directly controlled by the Emperor) and border strongholds, devoted their entire time training and fighting. Other armies only trained part time and doubled as peasants when they were not training, making them partially self-sustainable and relieving the government of a huge paycheck. During times when the control of the central government waned, these ordinary armies would reduce to normal peasants, making them no different than levies.
During Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasty, typicalnumbers for stationed armies would be around a hundred thousand in the capital,several thousand to some thirty to fifty thousand in each stronghold, as well as a similar number of ordinary armies garrisoned in each provincial level division. See relevant historical records for detailed composition. (The “志”sections of《新元史》《明史》and《清史稿》)
There is the vexed problem of balancing thesize of the military in and out of China. It can be done by applying ahistorical restraint, supply and attrition. China is pretty isolatedgeographically, with the Siberian tundra in the north, sea to the east and south, tropical jungles and mountain ranges in Yunnan, Tibetan plateau in the southwest with a base altitude of more than ten thousand feet, and more mountain ranges and deserts in the northwest Xinjiang region. The fact that the silkroad is so famed actually tells the same story. If there were lots of roads connecting China and Europe/India/Arabia, then none would become famous. It isexactly because that the silk road was the only possible route that it becameso famous. By simulating surrounding terrain and supply status, the game caneasily make it unlikely for Chinese forces to conquer land outside China, as well as making outside forces difficult to get in. The only two exceptions should be Siberia and the seas. The former was the route taken by the Mongol Empire going outward, as they used cavalry, reducing supply time and attrition, and by the Tsarist Russia going in, as they were used to Siberian climate. The latter was the route taken by various colonial powers in the modern era.
5. On Game Balance and Conclusion
By adopting aforementioned suggestions, onecan create a historical China as well as bring in a different kind of gameplay experience. To balance out control, China should have high base control, while keeping a fast growing population and having an intricate and barely sustainable balance of food, resulting in a lot of resources spent on food production. Food status should have deciding impact on stability, with inadequate food leading to lower stability and lower control, resulting in evenless food, and ultimately turmoil. To balance out technology, China should havethe historical institutions and advances as they were, but having a pettyliteracy to research exchange ratio. To balance out military, China should havea standing army but unable to move far away due to constraints in supply.
One would argue that these changes wouldmake China very isolated from the rest of the world. But that is exactly whathappened historically. China was left without much foreign interference untilvery lately, namely since the opium war of 1840. British colonialists came viasea to the mystic oriental country, only to find it not as prosperous as the talestold and without the means to protect itself. I think the rather stagnating situation in those 500 years should be depicted in the game.
In the end, I would like to say that withChina having some of the most well-recorded history in the world, it would onlybe fair to present it a it was. It is also commercially beneficial as a lot of players are from China, although maybe with different IPs. These players might find it uncomfortable as well with an under-represented and ahistorical China.
